BSG: The Baltarian Dialogues

3.20: "Crossroads part 2"

Here I present some transcribed email back-n-forth between myself and Zorknapp, aka Mike, on the season finale of BSG. Note that it doesn't quite read chronologically, as a conversation. Each of us was responding to points by the other over a couple days of email, so they're more like threads. An episode summary post is the seed of the discussion...

(Credit for the "Baltarian Dialogues" title goes to Zorky =)

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cabinboy: Felix lies to help convict the ex-Prez and his one-time idol. He's the guy who helped Baltar win the office of President when he uncovered the crooked voting.

ZORKNAPP: I actually thought that was interesting, that Felix would lie. To salve his own conscience? Do retroactively try to fix what he helped to do? Interesting trait on his part, that I hope just isn't dropped...

cabinboy: It's mean, but I really like that Gaeta's been brought low by association with Baltar, after idolizing him and then basically winning him his Presidency (or at least, not letting it be stolen by Roslyn). I think his motivation in perjuring himself is a good part guilt (he was ready to let himself be tubed for the things he couldn't stop, people he couldn't save, on New Caprica, even tho he *was* in fact instrumental in much of what the resistance accomplished), and another hefty chunk hatred of GB, cut with a hefty dose of self-hatred. By lying to convict Baltar, I'm sure on some level he wants to make up for being a party to his puppet administration and pimp and handler to the man.

ZORKNAPP: Very true. I hope that we see more of Gaeta as time goes on, perhaps with ramifications of his lie...

Baltar: It's no secret, the whole fleet knows this guy tried to stab me thru the neck... and YOU MISSED, butterfingers!

ZORKNAPP: Does the whole fleet know about whatever Baltar is talking about? I'm not even sure if I do...

cabinboy: I don't know that the attack Baltar refers to is common knowledge. I would've thought that it would've been kept under wraps by the authorities, but I'm sure Baltar and his lawyer would have made it public to help their cause, garner sympathy. I don't remember that explicitly happening, tho.

ZORKNAPP: I thought the phrase, "Stab me through the neck" was a bit too specific to just be a general throwaway line...

cabinboy: To clarify, yes, he *did* stab Baltar in the neck during an interview/interrogation, goaded by what Baltar said to him when he realized that Gaeta was sent to talk to him as "good cop" stooge, having spotted the not-so-hidden camera in the room. But we know that Gaeta was ready to do Baltar in before that, when he discovers Baltar performing a very low-tech Cylon detector test on himself... aka hanging himself in his cell.

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Judge: Like everything human, justice is imperfect, it's flawed. But it's those very imperfections that separate us from the machines, and maybe even makes us a species worth saving.

cabinboy: Speciesist judges, eh?

Not guilty.

ZORKNAPP: I do always find it interesting that the "humans" have to keep reminding themselves that they're better than the machines they themselves created. It's part of convincing themselves that they're worth saving.

By the way, the initial two seasons always had that "The Cylons were created by humans...and they have a plan..." prologue. Now, it's gone. Do the Cylons not have a plan anymore? And besides breeding a half Cylon-human baby, do we know what their plan was? And not a lot of God talk anymore...

cabinboy: Hrmm... I hadn't given the abridging of the opening all that much thought. Yeah, without having eyes/cameras in with the Cylons, we don't get anymore of that Gods vs God talk. Poly vs monotheist... Did I incorrectly infer that the Cylons were swinging towards monotheism? Is it only Baltar and his virtual Six who have referred to a single supreme being type, and the real skin jobs consistently refer to plural gods?

ZORKNAPP: My recollection is that all the Cylons are on the road to monotheism, with perhaps Brother Cattel's model being a bit ambivalent about the whole thing...

cabinboy: I wonder what religions we'll be treated to when the BSG and Cylon fleets reach Earth? Maybe they'll team up to pose as a threat that will unite all the Earthicans. They could keep sending Cylons to engage them and lose battles cuz they'll always resurrect. Maybe their presence will be responsible for peace in the Middle East.

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Lawyer Rommel(?): Well, your boundless confidence provided us with great solace throughout the proceedings.

ZORKNAPP: I liked the lawyer! I hope he comes back. I do wonder if he has some sort of connection to Baltar. Or, could he be a Cylon model?

cabinboy: Lawyer (I remember him as the pyrokinetic from an early early X-FILE) was excellent. I would very much like to see him come back, but hopefully not in a forced way. He was a great foil for Apollo, and a great switch-flipper for Baltar. The references to gramps Adama had me wondering if he was somehow connected in a very longshot Cylon way to him, resurrected in a younger body or something. Not a chance, really.

ZORKNAPP: I'm glad you're just calling him "Lawyer." I could never remember his name.

cabinboy: Yeah, several BSG character names regularly escape me. Lawyer, Starbuck's stalker Cylon, Preacher/Brother Cattel. Took me a while to remember Tyrol...

cabinboy: I don't see him as one of the five.

ZORKNAPP: Generally agreed. But, I do think there's *something* more to him...

cabinboy: I'm going to question it every once in a while, but I will continue to go along with the notion that there are twelve different skinjob Cylon models. I cannot remember now who revealed that when and to whom. I seem to remember a note that Adama unfolds and reads...? Was that in the miniseries pilot? Frack.

ZORKNAPP: Yes, in the miniseries pilot, there's a note left *in* Adama's office. Who could have left it, and who would have known? Tighe? The Pres?

cabinboy: Thanks for the refresher on that. That's bugged me for a while now.

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Baltar: Think about this for a second. Where am I going to live? What am I going to do? How am I going to survive?

Lawyer: As much as I hate to use a cat metaphor, doctor, I think you'll land on your feet.

ZORKNAPP: Meow!

cabinboy: Have we seen any space cats on the show?

ZORKNAPP: No pets at all that I can recall...

cabinboy: Ah, Muffy the Daggit...

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Apollo: Rommel, one thing, when you put me on the stand, did you know what was going to happen?

Rommel: I knew you were an honest man, Mr. Adama, much unlike your grandfather...

cabinboy: Unlike (did I hear that right?)... How well did he know gramps Adama? Does he know somehow that the Adama line carries a Cylon/earthican seed? And... He leaves the cane behind. Doesn't need it. Never needed it? Lawyering sympathy-garnering affectation?

ZORKNAPP: I'd have to see that episode, but I think Apollo would have reacted stronger to a slander against his grandfather (whether it's really true or not). I think that Rommel liked the senior Adama, but thought that he was hardass. Never questioned his honesty before... Although, if you did hear correctly, maybe that will go somewhere...

cabinboy: Yeah, UNlike doesn't seem right coming from Rommel, given the esteem he held gramps Adama in. But I could've sworn that was what I heard. That made me think that Rommel might've been closer to gramps than he let on. Some relationship that's stronger than professional respect. Something genetic, perhaps.

ZORKNAPP: Did you tape the show? Perhaps a replay could answer the question... You're really fixated on this genetic/reincarnation idea, aren't you? :)

cabinboy: I played that bit back again this evening and it really sounds like UNlike. Maybe lawyer was being sarcastic/ironic? I honestly couldn't say for sure given his character and delivery.

I am a bit fixated on the idea that Cylon skinbags are essentially human, and vice versa, with DNA and genes that determine their biological programming, and by creative license and extrapolation couldn't you pass information or bits of identity down thru generations thru that programming?

In my head, tho, I know it's probably too sophisticated and requires way too much exposition to pull off on a TV show. Still, I like the idea.

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Adama: Not guilty is not the same as innocent.

ZORKNAPP: We tend to forget that...

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cabinboy: The Ionian Nebula—unique radiation or other phenom is the trigger for the Five/Cylons?

ZORKNAPP: There were hints of the song in the last episode, it would have to be a pretty powerful signal to be associated with the Nebula. Not impossible, but I am curious as to what is causing this trigger....

cabinboy: Ha! Baltar continues to live the late night Cinemax life, as girlies save Baltar...

ZORKNAPP: Where could they be taking him off to? A room with a bed and a candleabra? And nothing else? Besides loungy piano music?

Baltar: where are you taking me?

Girl (with two girly friends): To your new life.

ZORKNAPP: Ooo Gah!

cabinboy: Baltar and Emmanuelle in Space!

cabinboy: That woman wanted him to bless her child. Where the F did that come from? Is he gonna put together his own Jonestown? A Manson family?

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cabinboy: Baltar, Six, and Hera in the opera house/council chamber... Five figures in the balcony... Whose projection/vision is this? Are the five a new school riff on the old school BSG space angels?

ZORKNAPP: I thought it was supposed to be the 5 unseen Cylon models... And their very bright robes flashed to black before Boomer/Pres/Six all awoke from the same dream... Interesting...

cabinboy: Yeah, I liked that black flash of the figures. And they're definitely The Five. I mentioned it in a ramble earlier this season and I'll repeat it. D'anna and Baltar, clued in by a Base Star Hybrid, are certain that The Five of the human prophecies and The Five unknown Cylons are five and the same. "Proof" that some form of Cylons have been with the humans even before humans created them. Or that those five humans are somehow responsible for creating/upgrading the toasters to skinjobs.

Or something...

ZORKNAPP: Ah, see, this is where my knowledge is a bit slim. What Five of what human prophesies are you talking about?

cabinboy: The temple on the algae planet was the Temple of the Five. The one that Tyrol discovered. Roslyn makes a comment at one point about how the Cylon Five might be the Five of the humans' Temple as well. And D'anna makes an observation when she's hanging w Baltar and the hybrid about how their Cylon gods might be connected to the humans' gods. If the Temple of the Five was built by the Earthicans/13th colony, and the Five are the mysterious Cylon models, then Cylons were with humans way back when, if not leading or guiding them, even.

cabinboy: The projection vision I describe above was different from the one where Roslyn, Athena, and Six meet each other. It didn't seem to be connected sensibly or obviously to any particular character in the real world. Given that it was only Baltar, Six, and Hera, I think it must've been Baltar and his Jiminy Six, and not the Caprica Six in the holding cell. I'll hafta review the episode again when I get a chance.

I wonder if Athena and Roslyn can see Caprica Six's Jiminy Baltar if they have another shared vision. This Kamala Root (+ cancer?) seems to be a way of unlocking the latent human projection ability, as well as somehow tuning into "native" Cylon telepathic frequencies (to share a vision/projection).

cabinboy: The singing ship... "All Along The Watchtower," by Bob Dylan? An intentional, local trigger? Or a "live" song from earth... A broadcast? Did any Dylan make it onto a Pioneer or Voyager recording or gold record? V'ger, only with the Cylons? Then they're in earth's future... our future... And so many light years away.

ZORKNAPP: "Send More Chuck Berry!" Where this whole song thing is going to go, I'm curious... I wish they had just used the song, without having the characters quote the lyrics.

cabinboy: Having the characters actually hear that song, from Earth, by Dylan, pretty definitively ties the series continuity to 20th century earth as we know it in the real world. That, I like.

ZORKNAPP: Or, the future... They didn't use the original version, and it's pretty wacky sounding. So, it could be Earth in the future, to go along with your Star Trek tie in idea... Maybe we can finally see what would win in a fight, a Battlestar or the Enterprise...

cabinboy: Yeah, a future that grows out of our history. Altho, I was really hoping for my other theory, that they arrive in our past and become the inspiration for Greek mythology (and Xena, and the Quantum Leap project =).

cabinboy: Three of the resistance leaders and Roslyn's aide... Cylons? Special Cylons. Earthican agents? Without orders, tho. They have their own, existing, current, wills and personalities. Will they form Voltron?

ZORKNAPP: I got a laugh from the Voltron line... I still don't think they're Cylons. Although, they did seem to accept the general idea easily enough. But, what of the Chief's baby? I think that there's an Earth connection somehow is MUCH more likely...

cabinboy: Assume they're not Cylon sleeper agents... Can you think of anything that is common to these four Cylon wannabes?

That each may have had congress with Cylons? A Cylon STD? Anders, if Starbuck's a Cylon. Tyrol, with Boomer. Tighe, with his wife, perhaps (is that how Six's Baltar knows Tighe lost/killed her?). Roslyn's aide, with... who knows?

But then, Helo's gotten it on with Athena, and Baltar and Caprica Six of course. We haven't seen or heard either of them mention the music. Maybe because those two ARE Cylons...?

Maybe you can become a Cylon by becoming infected somehow, with a techno-organic virus of some kind...?

Were they all exposed to some particular thing or event? Together at the same time? An explosion? Someone's touch? Hera? In the same confined space for a time? A raptor or other ship?

What's in Tighe's eye socket?

cabinboy: Yeah, there's definitely an Earth connection, but I don't think that and being a form of Cylon are mutually exclusive.

ZORKNAPP: Agreed. I think there is going to be some sort of robotic issue on Earth... The Cylons are just as interested in finding Earth, so I don't think they're there yet, or have any knowledge of where it might really be. But they are robots, and have plenty of time...

cabinboy: Humans and Cylons must join together to save the Earth from intelligent apes!

Or... hrmm....

Zombies!!!

cabinboy: Y'know... Zombie Cylons isn't all that hard a sell... or rather, CELL... heh. I was hoping for that when we saw that virus infested beacon wreck those base ships.

cabinboy: Starbuck's back! So, maybe she was wormholed to the Ionian Nebula from the eye of that storm? Oh, no, of course! She's been to earth, and she's going to take them all there. Sure, why not?

ZORKNAPP: Interesting that she shows up at the same time as a big Cylon fleet. It's a very convenient happening... Is Starbuck the 5th model? Would she have heard the music if she was still on the Galactica? Could the 5 models actually be humans from Earth?

cabinboy: I got the idea that Starbuck led the Cylons to the human fleet's location. I imagine a season premiere with Starbuck waking up in a resurrection tub. Or in the hold of a heavy raider, with whatzhishead, the stalker Cylon, driving, having rescued her from the eye of the storm that supposedly killed her. The episode would then be about her accepting her prophecied destiny. She hops into a captured viper that the Cylons have in storage and together w the Cylons, they jump to Earth. Maybe the Cylons get sick, tho, and can't stick around, so Starbuck convinces them they should go back to the human fleet, make nice, get innoculated, and together, go to Earth.

ZORKNAPP: Since they got sick from that old human artifact earlier in the season, that's right... I think that Starbuck might very well be the Fifth of the Five, with whatever the Five end up being...

cabinboy: Or Starbuck's w the Cylons, she goes to Earth on her own, comes back to the Cylons, tells them the Earth's in trouble and only the Cylons together w the humans can save it, so they jump to the human fleet in the hope of negotiating a team-up and then go to Earth all together.

Or something...

ZORKNAPP: But, what do the Cylons really want with the humans on Earth...

cabinboy :Hasselhoff.

cabinboy: What if humans are actually more perfect/developed Cylons (or rather, Cylons are imperfect humans), and when they die, they resurrect biologically, but without an artificial chamber. They resurrect in a newborn human child. And there are no spatial-distance limits to the broadcasting of a spirit/identity/persona. Maybe dying Colonials are reborn on earth...? And perhaps some Earthicans have been reborn in Colonies?

ZORKNAPP: Hmmm, seems interesting, but where do you go with this? I think it's perhaps more likely that there are Earth humans on the Galactica, and they may be behind the prosltizing to the Cylons. Just like humans, to go spreading their religion all over the Galaxy...

cabinboy: I'm dreaming up that when humans anywhere die, they resurrect, wherever humans are, regardless of distance, so it could be on Earth or in the Colonies (now the fleet), but their identities are submerged. So, maybe it's not true resurrection, but reincarnation, just a passing of certain data, experiences, flashes of memory, images, music... This could explain prophets among the humans.

ZORKNAPP: There's going to be a big leap in this show if it goes in that direction, which isn't bad, but I'm concerned that if they don't take it as just a "Okay, here are the rules of the game," they might get too stuck on trying to *explain* it all, and then we're on the road to technobabble...

cabinboy: Yeah, again, I know that some of my wishful thinking ideas are too different from what we've seen so far, the ground rules, such as they are. The strange human-Cylon culture straddling of The Five sort of opens the door to some third type of race, but explaining reincarnation might be too much and too new for the show.

cabinboy: When I first thought of the resurrecting humans I had a flash to how dying in the Colonies and being reborn on Earth, and vice versa, could explain ideas of an afterlife, and maybe a heaven and hell, for both cultures.

cabinboy: Random, dunno if I ever got around to publishing this in a post. Baltar's virtual Six, Adama's wedding anniversary visits from his wife, and Roslyn's and Starbuck's visions, they've got me thinking that all sentient skinbags in the BSG universe, whether Cylon or human, are capable of projection. And that gets me thinking that they may both have been "created" by some other power or race, that they are much more similar than they are different, that by artificially emulating humans, the Cylons have arrived at a humanity that has easier access to already existing human abilities (projection, perhaps shared consciousness and telepathy)...

ZORKNAPP: We've talked about this a bit. I think it's an interesting idea, but still not enough facts to really support it yet.

cabinboy: Sorta random... I'd like to learn more about what makes projection so great. What sort of real/practical advantages it gives Cylons over humans, if any.

Six's Jiminy Baltar tells her about Tighe's emotional issues and the death of his wife. Of course, he's not specific about it, but he's not exactly vague, and... he's right! He tells Six something that there's no way she could know. What's up with that? Is her Baltar an avatar for some latent telepathic or empathic Cylon ability?

cabinboy: Or, all humans who exhibit this sort of zaniness are in fact Cylons.

cabinboy: I've wondered since early on if the skinbags could be grown to different ages. Could Roslyn be an aged version of a Six? Could the Preacher be an older Baltar? Could Apollo be a younger Preacher?

I'm certain that would fly in the face of what's been established so far in the show, so rationally, I know it's not gonna happen (at least not with the 7 regular skinjobs).

ZORKNAPP: Agreed. I still don't think Baltar's a cylon, they could never make a robot that self-absorbed...

cabinboy: Ha, well said!

cabinboy: G1980... 27 years later... wack.

ZORKNAPP: No Dr. Z though...

cabinboy: "There must be some way out of here, said the joker to the thief..." Hopefully the creators' choice of song/lyrics doesn't reflect their sentiment regarding the situation they've written themselves into...

ZORKNAPP: Always a concern... I think they have ideas, but I hope the final ideas are strong enough to not disappoint...

ZORKNAPP: I have hopes that they know what they're doing, but they're throwing a lot at us now, and without a lot of clues as to where it's going. I'm enjoying the ride, but am hoping that they can balance the tightrope they've put themselves on...

cabinboy: A crossover with a STAR TREK franchise?

ZORKNAPP: Gods no....

cabinboy: *Was* Dylan included on any NASA probes? Gold records or beacon broadcasts? SETI Arecibo blasts?

ZORKNAPP: I don't believe so. Chuck Berry was, and some Mozart or Bach (or maybe it was a Mach piece).

cabinboy: I'm still processing. I'll probably need to sift thru this later this week, maybe with Zorky's help.

ZORKNAPP: Summoned, I appear...

cabinboy: CONTINUES IN 2008?! Bastards!

ZORKNAPP: Yes, it does seem a bit long... Hopefully, January 2008.

cabinboy: Look at all the synapses burnt out wondering about this frickin TV show...

*sigh*

ZORKNAPP: I have missed getting this into a TV show, since B5 went off the air...

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Thanks, Zorky, for the nerdy BSG jam session!

Keep on keepin on~